Ethics.. A tough question

[Deanne]

nicely said err0r. I appreciate your willingness to be upfront and honest. And would gladly read through your thoughts if you wanted to expand on any of your points. I'm not so interested in changing your mind, as glad to have an opportunity for everyone to express our different views and thus gain a better understanding of each other in the end.

 

And on the flip side, I think I kind of understand the mentality that went into buzzen using the msn ocx. Probably at first they were lashing out and fighting back against what they felt was an unfair situation (msn going subscription). I don't agree with their method, but I do acknowledege a sincere desire that was probably behind that, at first. I'm not completely set against the robinhood philosophy in life, as is apparent in my past choice.

 

But where I really see the wrong in what buzzen is now doing, is the length to which they are attempting to mislead people into supporting something as legal, when it just isn't legal.

 

As much as I support freedom of speach, I also support freedom of choice.

 

Hence, when I took that group over, I upheld freedom of speach, and freedom of choice by making the situation completely clear to everyone. Each person was able to read both sides of things, and decide for themselves if they wanted to stay, or join the other group. To ensure that people were able to maintain relationships, and did not lose any because they did not know where others moved to, I added the link to the new group onto the welcome page.

 

If buzzen had been upfront in what they did, and why they did it, it would have created a situation in which freedom of speach, and choice was upheld, and where people were free to choose if they wanted to agree and support buzzen, or not.

 

What bothers me the most about the whole buzzen situation, is the misleading. Seeing people I have known for a long time, being tricked into supporting a chat service, and sending that chat service $70 per room registration fee, because they have been misled and tricked into thinking buzzen is totally legal. These are people who never would have supported buzzen if they had been told the truth in an upfront way. That is where my biggest issue with buzzen lays, and that is where I see what I did, and what buzzen did as fundamentally different. I was open about what I did, and why, and upheld each persons right to choose to agree or disagree with me, buzzen hasn't.

 

**Edit**

At least you have explained your side which is much more than they have but in the end you are both just trying justifying a wrong into a right.

 

I'm not convinced that buzzen is trying to justify anything, well with the exception of maybe YAHOO. What I see buzzen doing is being fully aware of breaking the law, but choosing to mislead others in order to gain financial benefit and chatters.

 

I on the other hand might be accused of trying to justify what I did, because fundamentally when faced with 3 years of bad choices, I made what I still consider to be the best choice, out of two less than ideal choices, based on a totally wrong situation to even begin with.

 

And in the end, maybe at least the two who took things over first, now have a little bit of understanding for what the rest of us old owners went through, when we watched them take our room away from us.

 

So I acknowledge my err0rs (lol) in dealing with the situation all along, but I still really believe that after all those wrong choices, I made a choice I can live with. I used the knowledge I had to try to end wrong, instead of letting wrong perpetuate.

 

..And really, based on the groups history and desire for faithfulness and unity to the room, other good options, such as starting over, were ruled out because for this particular situation, they would have been ineffective and unhelpful. Yet despite my awareness that starting a new group would be ineffective and unhelpful, I still tried very hard to take that route first in hopes it would pan out to be effective and helpful. But I simply was unable to make that option known to the group because the one group owner refused to allow freedom of choice to stand.

 

So in a way err0r, simply acknowledging that I tried other methods first shows that I don't think my final drastic choice was the ideal way to handel things. Just as no police officer things killing someone is the ideal way to handel a dangerous situation either, but unfortunately, based on the situation at hand..sometimes less than ideal choices are deemed necessary interventions.

 

I just know that choices are rarely simple, and often we judge others, and even ourselves based on a simplifed world view, instead of really letting the complexity of the whole situation really sink in. And I'm guilty of that more times than not. I like to make everything black and white when in reality it's usually just not that simple.

 

My main goal with buzzen is to provide people who had been misled into thinking buzzen was legal, and owned the msn chat ocx (lol) with the information to realize that buzzen is not legally using that msn ocx, and thus enabling those mislead and tricked people into being able to really choose if they wanted to support illegal behavior, or not. It's all about the freedom of choice for me.

 

Buzzen is free to choose to do illegal things, but people should also be enabled to knowingly choose if they want to support that illegal behavior, or not. I believe buzzen has smeared this clarity, and mislead people who would not have chosen to support buzzens illegal behavior, into not only supporting illegal behavior, but sending buzzen money also. That's my biggest issue with buzzen.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Deanne

[«‡þøw€®‡»™]

Guess all roads lead to Buzzen eh Deanne?

[Deanne]

Guess all roads lead to Buzzen eh Deanne?

 

I was responding to a likeness that err0r was trying to draw between my actions and the actions of buzzen.

[err0r]

We'll i think i need to say something here. Why your situation bothers me more than the buzzen ordeal. I'll start by saying my reason is completely unfair to you.

 

I'm not very close with many people online. I do consider most of the people i know online to be my friends but only a very very few know anything about me personally. You tend to get a preconceived notion about people you meet online. I only knew you through your work on CE and the few emails we swapped mostly concerning CE. I judged your character through our very small interactions. I saw through the work you put into CE and the help you provided people that you cared. The way you made CE and put it out it seemed your ideals on scripting were in line with ours at tg. I considered you one of the goodguys. When I first heard that the GWEN took a msn group i stood up and told them no way. She wouldn't do such a thing. Once I found out you did I was shocked and sorry to say highly disappointed. This wasn't fair to you in many ways. I couldn't expect you to live up to my expectations when I didn't know really who you were or what the complete situation was. I did listen to your side. I've read it over and over yet I still come to the same conclusions. I don't think taking the group was the right thing to do. I do need to apologize in a way as this issue bothered me more than buzzen but for me this issue was more personal. I don't know anyone with buzzen outside of YAHOO and there have been many times in the past he and I didn't quite agree on things. I respect YAHOO as I always have but know he and I don't see eye to eye on many things so it was really no surprise to me when we didn't agree completely on the buzzen issue. I like to see good people do good things. There is so many bad things in the world ( alot reflected in simple attitudes towards things like the msn ocx bring light to it ) that when I see a person I think is good do something that I think is wrong it does shake my faith in people a little more than it should. I hope that sheds a little more light into why this issue gets me a little more than the buzzen thing. I still think what you did was wrong yet i know you aren't a bad person for doing it.

 

Something very similar happened to me when i decided to leave xt. I wasn't forced out physically but I had a very similar choice as you as to what to do. Make the changes i thought needed to be made or choose another path. If you aren't familiar with that whole saga i can clarify but i think most know it.

 

oh jay that would so make a great buzzen slogan.. on the internet highway all roads lead to buzzen..

[Guest X-Fusion]

Actually, if your relating the slogan to this topic, wouldnt it be all curvy roads lead to Buzzen?

[err0r]

The internet hightway. No matter where you go you are always one click away from porn.

[Guest X-Fusion]

I love your logic Master w00

[Deanne]

We'll i think i need to say something here. Why your situation bothers me more than the buzzen ordeal. I'll start by saying my reason is completely unfair to you.

 

I'm not very close with many people online. I do consider most of the people i know online to be my friends but only a very very few know anything about me personally. You tend to get a preconceived notion about people you meet online. I only knew you through your work on CE and the few emails we swapped mostly concerning CE. I judged your character through our very small interactions. I saw through the work you put into CE and the help you provided people that you cared. The way you made CE and put it out it seemed your ideals on scripting were in line with ours at tg. I considered you one of the goodguys. When I first heard that the GWEN took a msn group i stood up and told them no way. She wouldn't do such a thing. Once I found out you did I was shocked and sorry to say highly disappointed. This wasn't fair to you in many ways. I couldn't expect you to live up to my expectations when I didn't know really who you were or what the complete situation was. I did listen to your side. I've read it over and over yet I still come to the same conclusions. I don't think taking the group was the right thing to do. I do need to apologize in a way as this issue bothered me more than buzzen but for me this issue was more personal. I don't know anyone with buzzen outside of YAHOO and there have been many times in the past he and I didn't quite agree on things. I respect YAHOO as I always have but know he and I don't see eye to eye on many things so it was really no surprise to me when we didn't agree completely on the buzzen issue. I like to see good people do good things. There is so many bad things in the world ( alot reflected in simple attitudes towards things like the msn ocx bring light to it ) that when I see a person I think is good do something that I think is wrong it does shake my faith in people a little more than it should. I hope that sheds a little more light into why this issue gets me a little more than the buzzen thing. I still think what you did was wrong yet i know you aren't a bad person for doing it.

 

Something very similar happened to me when i decided to leave xt. I wasn't forced out physically but I had a very similar choice as you as to what to do. Make the changes i thought needed to be made or choose another path. If you aren't familiar with that whole saga i can clarify but i think most know it.

 

oh jay that would so make a great buzzen slogan.. on the internet highway all roads lead to buzzen..

err0r I understand and would probably feel much the same way. I know warrior was also faced with the same tough situation.

 

It is difficult, because I also realize that my final choice wasn't an ideal one, and agree with much that you have said--but for me, I felt cornered into sitting back and passively allowing wrong to perpetuate itself, or to use a less than ideal method to end that wrong, after trying more ideal ways to fix the situation, and having those more ideal ways not work.

 

But I can't say I would respect myself anymore if I had turned around and walked away from the whole issue, without taking a stand and doing what I did.

 

**Edit**

ps err0r, I don't think you mis-judged me. I do care, and that is why I couldn't bring myself to just sit back and watch people I cared about being treated wrongly and unfairly.

 

Also, I have thought alot about what if any part pride and revenge played in my decision. Ultimately, I think it was my deep sense of utter outrage at the one owners attempt to restrict the freedom of choice of the group members to see the link I was offering to a group which would not have censored or rediculed anyone. To me, if that link had been posted, the whole situation would have ended there for me. Unfortunately, that owner felt he was right to restrict that option, so I felt I was right to move onto the next level of intervention, in an attempt to end the wrong being done in that group.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Deanne

[Webagent007]

Somehow I think your story is inconsistent, first you say you have no time and energy to start a new site

 

I realized that my current life situation did not allow me to dedicate the time needed to build up a whole new site. I had the time when I helped build the first site, but I no longer had the time necessary to do it again. <<cut>> err0r, its nobel to say you would just start over from scratch, and that is a good choice. But its another thing to realize you just don't have the time, engery or resources to start all over again.

 

And then you say after you took over the group you have (created?) a new group?

 

Hence, when I took that group over, I upheld freedom of speach, and freedom of choice by making the situation completely clear to everyone. Each person was able to read both sides of things, and decide for themselves if they wanted to stay, or join the other group. To ensure that people were able to maintain relationships, and did not lose any because they did not know where others moved to, I added the link to the new group onto the welcome page.

 

So whats left of your original excuse?

Edited October 27, 2006 by Webagent007

[YAH00]

Error never lose faith, the cover of the book does not tell the story;)