Deanne

Yahoo, you did fall back on the fact that you are only in the design end of it--and you use that as justification to be ignorant of other areas of the business. I agree, Yahoo, you sure don't need to have your abilities dragged down by being associated with illegal clones. And I have given you the benefit of the doubt. I sincerely think that you DON'T want to face the fact that clones are illegal, because ultimately you are NOT the type of person who WANTS to support illegal activity. Sometimes the hardest stands to take, are what make us our strongest. It might not be an easy decision to forsake clones because they refuse to admit or turn away from their unethical and illegal behavior--but I know that deep down inside, people know what is right, and feel better about doing what is right(even if it is hard and costs them alot), than over-looking and supporting wrong. Why do you think shows like superman are so popular. People like to see ethical and legal behavior win out over unethical and illegal behavior. And that is exactly why these clone topics end up being so popular!

What EXACTLY did you want this discussion to turn into? Yes I do. and I will glady stop doing so if the clones would just BE HONEST with their users about the fact that they were mistaken in unethically and illegally basing their webchat services on someone elses copyrighted chat software.

Well said err0r, and yes that is exactly what I want--for buzz en simply to admit openly and honestly that what they have done is ethically wrong, and also illegal. To me an admission like that would wash things clean, and show that buzz en really is intersted in being an upstanding, morally responsible chat network leader worth supporting and following. And for the record buzz en admin_jay: What does buzz en think of cloners? Do you support cloners at buzz en? Do you encourage people to clone other peoples nicknames or room names? Do you really want your chatters going from forum to forum and learning how to clone on buzz en? Do you REALLY want techgear to simply tell people how to clone on buzz en? Cause from my personal dealings with buzz en--buzz en doesn't support cloning, even though it is a clone itself. ps.... most big businesses know that bad publicity costs them more in users, than it brings in..thats why you hear big businesses say: 'tell everyone if you like what we are doing, but tell us if you have a problem with our service.' No one wants people going around telling everyone about the bad things they have done, because it does have the power to detract from their prestige. Look at oj simpson---he is a laughing stock, enough though he got ALOT of free publicity---but most of it wasn't good lol.

Yup err0r looks like you're right again. Yahoo, I think that you might be sticking your head into the sand, because you don't really want to admit that clones might have acted illegally. Basically that type of admission would leave you either knowingly supporting illegal activity(which you probably don't want to do), or coming to terms with the choice to leave--and leaving would cost you alot, namely being associated with one of the larger clone corporations. So it's just easier to stick your head into the sand, and convince yourself that you're not guilty of what you don't know about it. Cause ya, the designer is innocently designing, while the other culprits are busy gleaning donations while illegally using someone elses copyrighted chat software.

First you are trying to make techgear look bad by saying that people can't even ask a question about buzz en without being inundated with pages of off topic replies....but consider the question that was being asked pertained to how can you clone on buzz en. Do you really want your chatters going from forum to forum and learning how to clone on buzz en? Do you REALLY want techgear to simply tell people how to clone on buzz en? lol Cause from my personal dealings with buzz en--buzz en doesn't support cloning, even though it is a clone itself. lol Now you are trying to make techgear look bad, and feel bad, for letting it's users express their opinions what clones have done. Yup, until msn shuts you down, you will probably be supporting your chatters and yourself on the hard work of someone elses ocx. Sorry I just can't give you a pat on the back for that.

Oh yes lets see if we can throw enough weight around and bully techgear into making it's members submit and bow down to the mighty buzz en corporation. Why ANY scripting site interested in helping chatters would want to actively support clones is beyond me. Clones are placing chatters in a precarious position at best, which isn't at all helpful to chatters! Isn't it bad enough that msn was able to rip the rug out of chat once--but now the clones are inviting msn to rip the rug out from under chatters again..on clone sites. Any scripting site really interested in helping chatters would take time to make chatters AWARE of the issues and potential risks of getting cozy on a clone. Unfortunately most scripting sites now a days seem more interested in building their user base by snuggling up, and being friendly with the biggest chat networks around---even if those big chat networks happen to be illegal clones that put chatters at risk of losing another chat home. Thumbs up to techgear for caring enough about helping people, to leave not surpress valid concerns people have about the clones potentially leaving people high and dry if msn closes them down for illegally building their webchat businesses on the copyrighted msn.chat.ocx.

Yahoo, you want to talk theoretical, and I'm talking factual. theoretically you might be able to worm you way out of fines and jail time--but it doesn't mean what you have done is legal. (ie oj simpson) And yes, typical. If you can't silence people, threaten them. Yahoo, I have shown you 2 seperate e-mails from msn, which state that using the msn.ocx without permission is illegal. I am also aware that both you and admin_Jay think you can twist the laws of society enough to make what buzz en has done appear to be legal. Yahoo, now that I have clearly showen (in 2 seperate emails) that using the msn.ocx without permission is considered illegal by msn legal department. I then asked you if buzz en did obtain permission from msn to use the msn.ocx as the sole foundation for their webchat services? You haven't answered that question yet Yahoo. Also, yahoo--if and when you work in the buzz en help desk, what do you tell people who come in and ask about buzz en illegally using the msn.ocx? btw Molsen, you and others keep saying that msn doesn't care--but if msn hadn't have cared, would they have spent time and money on obtaining an official legal statement about this whole situation from their legal department? I also remember this same type of situation with napster--people were convinced that first it was legal...and then that even if it wasn't exactly 100% legal, the artists didn't care. And then once it became apparent that the artists did care, and were losing money, people justified it so that 'it didint matter because those artists made too much money anyways.' But in the end-------what happened to napster? I suspect that is what the end will hold for clones also.

Unfortunately err0r not everyone reads up on the issue---and honstly, even if they did read all the posts here, they would be caught between believing what us scriptors say about it being illegal, and what buzz en admin say about 'buzz en doing nothing illegal'. So even here, people can read two sides of the story. Buzz en admin_jay absolutely insists that buzz en has done nothing illegal, and alot of chatters look up to them as a professional and trustworthy corporation---and so all of us saying buzz en using the msn.ocx is illegally sound like a bunch of small time scriptors who don't really know what we are talking about. Sure I know there are some of us who KNOW it is illegal---but alot simply think we are lying about it. Just last week I was at buzz en talking about this issue, and one of the chatters rushed to the buzz en help desk to find out if what I was saying was true. They returned to inform me that I was lying, because buzz en help desk staff told them buzz en was NOT doing anything illegal. lol

User4: Using the ocx is illegal? It can't be because buzz en told me they weren't doing anything illegal! User5: Using the ocx isn't illegal!! buzz en owns the copyright on it! User6: Using the ocx isn't illegal!! google supports buzz en ads! User7: MSN endorses buzz en--didn't you see the ads?? User8: MSN supports buzze n becaues you can use your buzz en buddies on messenger. User9: Buzz en just rents server space from msn. User10: I was gulliable, and sent money to a group of small time conners. User11: I was so stuipd! User12: I hate buzz en, and know its illegal....but everyone else is there. err0r I agree that ircx is doing it because he cares about people--not the money. Buzz en on the other hand cares about the money, and only the people so far as they provide the money. Ircx once said that he wasn't putting ads on vsixc because he hated getting ad cookies on his computer, and wasn't going to put them on other peoples computer. Even though ircx realized he could makey money with ads, ircx chose to uphold his morals, and treat other people how he would want to be treated. I have alot of respect for ircx, because ultimately he does what he thinks is right, even if it means forfeiting money from ads. The whole of VSIXc is built on this kind of foundation--and in the long run, a slowly built structure on a solid foundation always outlasts and out performs a tall but shodily built straw hut on a foundation of illegal sand.

Molson, the fact of the matter is that some people care enough that as soon as they found out buzz en was illegally using the msn.ocx--they left. I have seen both paid rooms and none-paid rooms pack up and leave because they DON'T like the fact that buzz en used the msn.ocx illegally--and the fact that "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" concealed this from them made them feel gulliable and foolish. So Molson, you seem to be under the mis-understanding that no one cares, and that the whole world supports illegal activity. lol I'll break this to you gently Molson, alot of people still care. The fact of the matter is that" 1) Some people don't care. 2) Some people do care. 3) The majority of our society still tries to stay within the legal boundaries, and does NOT knowingly support illegal activity. Despite this, there are some people who don't care if they participate in illegal behavior, and there are also some people who prefer illegal behavior. 4) Buzz en realizes that the majority of people in our society are honest and willing to treat others rightly and fairly, and hence they have tried to color the whole issue, and mislead people into believing that "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" is perfectly legal, and on the up and up in everything it does, all the while playing on the generous and trusting side of those people, and hitting them up for financial donations. It's a sad situation, and personally I consider buzz en tactics to predatory. --->feeding off the trusting and generous nature of alot of people.

Yahoo I have posted several email responses from msn stating their offical position as being ANYONE WHO USES THE MSN.ocx WITHOUT PERMISSION IS DOING SO ILLEGALLY. In the past yahoo, "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" has tried to worm their way out of this by stating that they don't actually USE the msn.ocx---rather it's the chatters who are choosing to illegally use the msn.ocx. (lol) But has "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" forgot that an accomplis to a crime stands as guilty as the one who actually commits the crime? Requiring people to use the msn.ocx in order to participate in webchat makes "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" even more responsible. Yahoo, stop pushing the responsiblity off on others, and take the time to do the digging personally. With that said, and because yahoo specifically asked me to provide the emails that I am basing my information on, I will post the 4 responses I have personally recieved from msn on this matter: So for the record yahoo--did msn provided buzz en with permission to build buzz en webchat around the msn.ocx? ps..I don't know if it is true, but people at buzz en have told me that buzz en is legal because msn messenger supports buzz en buddies. If buzz en buddies do work on msn messenger, it is not legally, because buzz en is NOT listed on the authorized list: http://messenger.msn.com/Help/Authorized.aspx **And yahoo...in order to avoid confusion--->I don't think they mean YOU.

Yes lets try to pressure people into not laughing at an issue that is very laughable I suspect those who don't see the humor in it, would be the ones who support buzz en and don't like people laughing at something they support. Personally I find the replacement name for buzz ( "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME") to be perfectly funny. There has been a strong enough push to silence these discussions, that the new name fits perfectly, and highlights the humor in it all. I mean really--it is funny how 2 years ago people were talking about reporting the clones to get them closed down, and now some of thsoe same people are paying the clones. It is also funny how much people hate clones, and try to get you banned and your room shut down your nick, or room name even remotely resembles theirs, and yet they chat on a clone service. It is even funnier to see cloned chat services waging war on cloners, and banning them and closing them down--all the while being guilty of cloning msn themselves. It is also really funny how willing people are to follow the herd and decieve themselves that something perfectly illegal is really legal----all just so they won't have to make a difficult choice themselves, and leave the herd for legal ground. The fake buzz en ads on msn were also funny--and all the tales about how msn endorses buzz en, and supports buzz en are funny also. The lie about msn renting server space to buzz en was especially humorous, as was the lie that buzz en owns the copyright on msn ocx. lol Not to mention the lie that buzz en is legal cause you can find it on google, or that buzz en is legal cause msn messenger supports buzz en buddies lol!!! This whole cloning situation is a perfectly funny example of how being apart of a mass stupidity--people tend to willing follow the group, even when the group is doing something wrong. In history we see this same type of mass behavior perpetuate: what one or two people would never consider doing alone--a whole group will feel comfortable doing because the mass mentality is that they are somehow less personally responsible, or accountable for their choices and actions--simply because 'everyone was doing it'. This whole situation is basically so absurd and stupid, that humor is the only reasonable response left for it. "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" and the other clones have made a mockery of themselves and their chatters by stubbornly insisting that cloning msn is alright (but cloning a nickname or a room name is still wrong). lol (sigh)

And if alot of users were okay with them them illegally using the msn.ocx, their would be no need for them to veil the issue, or mislead people with only partially true statements, and even utterly false statements. (Sure in our world there is a small percentage of people who are OK with illegal activity---but that small percentage is by no means the majority of our population. Most people will only participant in illegal activity if they can find some way to deny it's illegal status to themselves.-----> Which is exactly what is happening at buzz. Few people actually WANT to dig and find out that using that msn.ocx is illegal--cause then it might challenge them to move to a smaller, but legal chat network.) All I can say is that when people start moving, and word gets around, alot of people would be perfectly willing, and even happy to mass exodus to a legal place. Buzz seems to be between a rock and hard place --> Can't really switch to their own legal ocx, cause it might cost them chatters $$, and can't be totally open and honest with people about the whole messy ocx situation either, cause again......... it might cost them chatters $$. It seems like they see their best option as maintaining a veiled level of partial truths, in order to cover the reality that the majority of people simply wouldn't want to support their illegal choice. They seem to be avoiding actually implementing their own ocx, and have chosen to just talk about it instead, for years now? It seems like that strategy is yet another way to deflect people away from getting too worked up over using msn's chat software illegally--if they should happen to find out about it. To all those people who don't care if something is illegal--that is your choice, but please don't color the rest of the world with the same paint brush, because there are still alot of us around who DO CARE. The very foundation of our society is honesty and right living, and the majority of people continue to live that way. Why do you think buzz was so successful in collecting all those $50 donations? Cause people are willing to do what they can to help others out, and treat them fairly. Alot of people think it is fair and right to help financially support a server they use---and it is most of those people who tend to shy away from illegal activities. That's why paid rooms are moving--cause once they found out that it is illegal to use someone elses copyrighted stuff without permission--they could not bring themselves to continue supporting a chat service that did that. And lasty---just because every person in a room is doing the illegal activity--doesn't make that illegal activity right, or legal.

lol x and x. Where reason, common sense, and all else fails--let humor succeed! watch the news section for a new 'The latest buzz' column, featuring updates on all the latest and greatest paid and non-paid rooms making the big move to non-clone chat networks!

Yahoo, the above is a prime example of the typical wishy washy "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" attitude, which seems to make "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" staff look wise and intelligent in their own eyes, and silly in most everyone elses eyes. Again, I encourage you to personally contact msn/microsoft to find out what their official position is on this--before you take up the standard bs...er "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" company line. I agree x--the thing that really hits my funny bone is that 2 years ago that alot of religion category people were outraged at the clones, and mocking them---now those same people are paying them. I know it sucks to admit to being conned, tricked, or swindeled out of a $50 donnation, but I think facing that reality would be better than living in the fantasy world that msn endorses "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME", supports "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME", or doesn't care what "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" does with msns copyrighted software. ps, I love the new name for b u z z e n --> "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" lol! and lol @ Smurffen too. you all are funny.

Yahoo, have you contacted them personally, and if so, what did they say? or is that just another attempt to muddy the issue, and get things off track? msn help has taken the time to wait for official feedback and direction from the legal department, and thus accurately provides people with the most recent and official stance on this issue. Legal

Contrary to popular belief, bad advertising costs you more in supporters than it brings in. Why do you think businesses tell you that if you have 'something good to say, tell everyone, and if you have something bad to say, come and tell us' "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" is losing paid rooms now even, because some people just recently found out that "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" is a clone, and lost respect for Buzzens choices and actions. Maybe "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" could have held onto some of respect of those people by being totally open and honest--but as it stands, those people come and tell others that they were gulliable. No one likes to feel like they were tricked, fooled, or taken advantage of, and if "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" has any hope of holding onto the respect of it's chatters now that the sense urgency over msn closing down has worn off--they will only acheive that with open honesty about the whole cloning situation. Also, yahoo...somewhere you wrote about msn putting up the ocx again, so they musn't care if the clones use them... That is a pretty big assumption, and I would encourage you to write to msn directly to confirm or deny it. I am also going to contact them, and ask specifically about what you said, seeing as how it's been a couple of weeks now since msn has sent me any emails about "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME", and the other clones still using the msn.ocx illegally.

I guess some people like big busy rooms, and other people like quiet cozy rooms.

If this was about cloning on msn, and if msn was a clone--I doubt the topic would be closed either. To my way of thinking buzzen seems to think it's okay to clone msn, so why should they get upset with cloners on their servers? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. And really is there any point in closing these topics? They are not out of hand, and if they do get closed, someone just starts another one.

I agree, it seems to be a generation full of narcissists. They don't want to put anything into a chatroom, but they expect people there waiting to serve their every chatting desire--immediatly. I say it's fair to get out what you put in If people don't wait around to chat with anyone else, they really don't deserve to find anyone waiting there to chat with them. Sometimes I intentionally look away when a someone like that comes in--and it only takes a split second till they leave again.

If I'm around I try to make time to chat with people, even if I'm busy scripting, and I think alot are like that. But one thing I've noticed consistently is that some people really seem to enjoy chatting, but for some reason alot of these same people seem unwilling to idle a bit in a room, and wait for other people who enjoy chatting to stop in.. I saw it alot on msn and also now at vsixc. I can't count the number of times I look back on a chat screen, and find people who are VERY interested in chatting simply missing each other by only a minute or two. A room full of joins and parts only a moment or two apart in some cases. I always end up thinking how sad that is to see people come in and out, and not wait around to meet up with the next people who are coming in only a few minutes after them. Unfortunately most seem to leave quickly and never even realize that 1 minute was all they missed 3 other chatters by. True some days are quieter than others, but I find that in general if you lounge around a room for a bit, there are nearly always people coming and going who are only too happy to find someone there wanting to chat with them.

lol nothing like tricking people into giving you a pat on your back, and their money--for using someone elses chat control. Personally I don't think we need any more clones either--though probably the rationale behind that is to prove that just about anyone with time can set up a clone service--so in essence the clones that already exist have done nothing impressive. Impressive to me is what VSIXc has done in creating their own chat control! But I know for some it's not about supporting what is right, or boycotting what is wrong--it's usually all about following the crowd--regardless of where the crowd is going. Though now, people have had time to get used to MSN being gone, and alot of people are discontented with where the crowd moved. More and more I hear a general buzzen about moving someplace else, and as that buzzen keeps getting louder more and more people set out to find a new chat home. Room owners sometimes get a bit nervous about moving to a smaller chat network like VSIXc, but the truth is, alot of people simply follow their room owners or friends, and would be happier chatting at a place they knew worked hard to create and continually improve their own chat control (not illegally use someone elses)--just so long as their same old room and regulars are there with them. The only difference between a busy chat service and a quiet one, are a few more people moving in and deciding to be active in chat.

Shagman, alot of people are trusting and simply assume that because a site looks professional--it is professional. Alot of people just don't realize that a professional looking site can also be an illegal or irresponsible site. What would cause an average, trusting chatter to think buzzen is an illegal clone, AFTER they saw MSN send buzzen ads? Probably nothing except someone like us bringing it up. We just talked to another person today, a retired senior who is looking for a place to move a PAID buzzen room because he/she just heard buzzen is an illegal clone. They consider themselves gullible and trusting, and they were WRONGLY taken advantage of. Now (because we didn't just let this issue die) they have all the information to decide if they WANT to support a clone, or not-- and they have decided that even though they sent $50 - they are looking for a new and LEGAL home. They don't want to support a clone. Shagman, some of us read this message board a hundred times a day, so we ALL KNOW about the clones and are tired of hearing about them. But some people only visit the boards every few months, and if nothing updated is mentioned about all of this, they probably won't dig back several months to find it. I think if we keeping pushing for this issue to die and jumping on anyone who brings it up, that we are doing the people who don't visit every day an injustice by not giving them a chance to discuss it when they do stop in. Maybe they have serious questions that our discussions answer, or maybe they will feel free enough to ask their questions if they see us continually be open and responsive to people who do bring the topic up. At anyrate, it is oppressive when we try to pressure people into silence, just because we are selfishly tired of hearing about something. If we don't want to read about the clones, avoide the topics. In that way both the person who wants to discuss it, and the person who doesn't want to read about it are free to do their own thing.

I agree that the clones will probably be popular for a while longer, but I think they've seen their peak now, or close to it. Now that the panick of finding a chat service is over, people are beginning to look around, think about what they want, and more and more are migrating away from the clones because they are tired of seeing MSN chat on bans, or don't like paying the a registered room fee, or don't like some of the clone problems. Some are even leaving because they have realized what a clone is, and they just don't like the idea of supporting a clone--especially when there are other good options out there. And I agree that alot of people moved over to buzzen because they were following a room that moved there, and alot of rooms simply followed a few other rooms. After MSN announced their closure, all I heard around MSN was 'where are you going' The word buzzen came up, and most flocked there in some kind of panick, without even realizing it was a clone, or thinking if they really wanted to chat on an illegal clone, and risk having msn shut down the clones webchat on them too.. In fact, my email had several requests to update CE for buzzen and phreik, and that was the first I realized that clones were still being used lol. I assumed they would have died out long ago as most of the people I knew were disgusted with them, and mocked them cloning MSN. But....it was like no one stopped to think about where they wanted to move, or for what reasons, or if they previously disliked clones or not. I was utterly shocked to see people who a couple of years ago were 100% against clones and trying to get them shut down, were now setting up their rooms on a clone and denying that buzzen was a clone BECAUSE THEY SAW MSN ADVERTISE BUZZEN, and thought MSN supported buzzen. Some of these people continue to insist that buzzen is perfectly legal because that is what buzzen help desk tells them. Though more and more are realizing their error and boycotting it. As for VSIXc --it continues to grow at a slow but steady pace. The statistics are consistently up from where they had been. And yes a few chatty rooms attract alot of people, but ultimately it is up to the chatters to bring their room and their people. As each new room move in, the number of people going room to room checking things out increases. VSIXc has provided an awesome server, with an amazing webchat, friendly staff and regulars, and a fun scripting experience--after doing all that, it is up to the chatters to make use of all that VSIXc offers. I encourage you to come and show your support for the path VSIXc took in writing its own chat software instead of illegally using someone elses. Come visit VSIXc, set up a room, and bring your friends--do your part to make VSIXc a busy place.

yup.