Deanne

Buzzen was never back up for me here--but I know alot of people are very frustrated with it going up, and then back down--especially after they paid(donated) to the service. The clones are just too unstable for me--never mind being utterly unethical, and illegal. But I won't get started on all of that again.

Yes if you run your own stuff----you tend to have a bit more control, and hopefully less problems.

Well Travis, my issue is that I would first like to see clones get themselves DE-Cloned by either making their own ocx or through using another chat sites oxc WITH PERMISSION, and UNDER AGREEMENT. And yes networking the different chat sites, in conjunction with setting up some kind of ocx type francise for those who want a chat site, but don't know how to write good chat software, or for those who currently have a clone site and want to de-clone it. I don't think it's enough to simply string all the clones together, because ultimately that leaves the chatters in a terrible position if msn decides to take action on the clones. We can all speculate they probably won't, but then again knowing msn they probably WILL. We have to find a way to de-clone the clones first, in my opinion.

Shagman I keep hearing how important you were in the success of one of the larger clones. If that is the case, why not get on side with a genuine chat site, and lend your abilities to a site that will honor your contribution? I agree Chief, some people are happy with their own little islands, but even islands often have a boat that takes people back and forth to the main land I'm not encouraging the swallowing up of small chats by the big chats--though sadly that often happens. I want to avoid that if possible. What I suggest is a whole network of smaller chats uniting to give people the opportunity to more easily chat with people. Hopefully making the smaller chats more able to stand next to the larger chats without getting swallowed up. "United we can stand, divided we fall as prey" My vision was more geared towards getting people to think about the issues, and perhaps encourage clones to find better ways to run their webchat, than to use the msn ocx without permission. (ie finding someone who has a good ocx and will let them use it with permission). From what I can see, even if sites like buzz are successful at swallowing up the smaller chats--it wouldn't benefit the chatters at all, because buzz can't comfortably handle all the chatters is has right now. Again today it took me over an hour to connect to a room, and if buzz draws in anymore people those disconnects and authentication troubles will likely increase even more. To me buzz has a great opportunity to help its chatters find other places they can chat when the buzz servers are too busy to handle all the chatters. buzz could easily provide links in partnership with the smaller free servers, and spread out the chatters a bit when buzz gets too busy to let people into rooms etc. Unfortunately, from the looks of buzz, they are just in it for themselves and the money.... hoping to collect a good number of registered room donations, and then thin out their over-filled servers a bit by encouraging people to click on all the google chat ads, which probably bring buzz admin a few more dollars. It's just sad to see, and I would like to see the smaller chat sites unite and kick buzz's butt right out of the chat world for it, or else have buzz join in and work together with others for the benefit of the chatters, not just for buzz's own personal and financial gain. I agree x. I also like to have a variety of chat experiences, and it is neat to see some of the things people come up with. What I would like to see though, is the clones de-clone, and to have all these smaller chat sites link together like the scripting sites did. For example on most scripting sites you can find a dozzen or more links to many other script sites. If the origianl site doesn't have what you want, maybe one of the dozen other partnered sites will. As for the the ocx franchise, I don't like to see common plainess either. I just think for people who lack the ability to create their own ocx, but who have the desire to run a chat server---partnering with someone who gives them permission to use the ocx under what ever conditions is a better solution that having so many people running around building webchat sites on the msn ocx without permission. The clones really leave the chatters in a precarious position if msn ever did decide to pull the plug or take the clone issue to court.

blaze it looks like you missed my point, so I'll clarify it a bit. If you had a large base of chatters, and took the time, effort, and even financial committment to create your very own scn chat software, with plans of earning some income through implementing subscription chat on your chat software.... Would you appreciate every tom, doug, and harry coming along and offering to let people chat on your copyrighted chat software for FREE on their sites? lol Now wouldn't that kind of under-cut your potential to market your ocx on a subscription chat bases? Anyone that says 'yes' they wouldn't mind either has too much money to care (and probably wouldn't have implemented subscription chat to start with) or is just to shallow to let reality sink in, and realize they would really NOT like others doing that to them. Letting it all sink in causes an uncomfortable tension at having to face that what they've done by using someone elses chat software without permission is just flat out unethical and wrong, at best, and illegal at worst. blaze, at the very least I do respect how blunt sparkpea is with letting people know they are chatting on msn chat software. I don't know about your site, because I was only there once, and didn't notice if you were more like sparkpea in being open about it, or more like buzzen, and hiding it. But I do know any respect I could must up for buzzen is heavily over-ridden by disgust at how they have hidden the ocx situation from people who MIGHT care, and played up the benefit those fake msn ads brought them.

Yup and those are the clones that I have the MOST problem with. How would you feel if you developed an ocx and tried to implement subscription chat with it, only to have a pack of clones use your ocx without permission, and lead your potential subscribed chatters away to free sites. I don't think you'd like it very much. At least the clones that started AFTER msn shut down, have some kind of valid excuse for their actions.

That's not a partnership, that a buy out for purpose of monopoloy lol.

It's not a bad idea to draw people into a chat site. If the room gets busy, and people meet a few other people there they like, they might return to chat when things get slow at their regular chat sites. Maybe they'll even like it enough to move an established room over. I think crush.fm radio touched on another good method. They've been advertising a birthday bash for one of their dj's in one of their crush rooms--I'm pretty sure some of the listeners will stop in to that chat, just to check things out. Again, maybe they'll meet some people they like, and return off and on to chat when things get slow at their regular places. My only issue again is that this is another clone. sigh. We have clones popping up all over the place.

Chat franchise With the high level of msn clones popping up, anyone who came up with a way to franchise legal chat software would probably do very well, and successfully unite a large number of chat servers into a network that could easily rival msn and yahoo, if they decided to join forces. But thats just my opinion.

lol Travis, alot of people were also convinced we'd never fly, or walk on the moon. Is there any limit to what people can do, if they set their mind to it? The synergy created when people work together, and continually improve upon the works of themselves and others, is what feeds our ability to advance. A small example of that is seen in scripting--alot of the scripts coming out now are far advanced from the scripts we were happy to use 4 or 5 years ago. A great deal of that advancement came through the willingness of scriptors to work together. Maybe not all the chat sites are ready to form a larger network and support each other, but I think the chatters would benefit from it. My difficulty is with what to do with the clones, because I can't bring myself to support their unethical conduct in using the msn ocx without permission. I would be great if they looked at options that allowed them to partnership with others so that their webchats could be fully on the up and up.

We seem to have chat sites popping out of every cyber nook and cranny around. The old MSN chatters are scattered throughout so many different chat sites, that none of the chat sites works really have a big crowd, except for buzz. And buzz has more than they can comfortably handle guaging by their 1-3 hour waits for authentication to join a room, and the frustrating number of disconnects happening. Too many chatters for a server can be just as bad as not enough. I don't think having all these seperate chat servers isn't bad in itself. It can even be helpful to spread out the bulk of chatting onto several servers, and prevent the difficulties of having more people on any one server than that server can comfortably handel. But what is unfortunate is that alot of people who used to be able to connect with alot of people, now find themselves either isolated on smaller servers, or locked out of the big one due to too much traffic. These chatters seem to have little knowledge of where others might be chatting at, or how they can find people to chat with if their server is quiet for a few hours, or if they are locked out of a larger server due to too much traffic. As many know, I really hate what the clones have done, and do not find what they have done ethical in anyway. I simply cannot bring myself to suggest any type of partnership with clone chats, but I would love to see all the genuine chats join together to form one large Chat Network. Even if people are spread out over several different servers, that is fine. Hopefully none of the servers will get so over-populated so as to experience all the disconnects and server authentication problems that buzz gets. Idealling it would be great if the other genuine chats shared the same ocx, so that people could hop between them and chat as easily as changing chat categories. But I know that is probably unrealistic, unless someone has a really good ocx that they are willing to share, and everyone else wants to use it also. At the very least it would be great to see a partnership begin to happen between the genuine chats, where the genuine chats can provide access to their partner sites, so that people can find each other better, and move from one place to another more easily. Kind of like all the scripting sites do now. Since we've been listening to www.crush.fm at Vsixc Chat, I've realized how nice it is to be 'connected' to other chats, and hear what is going on in them. Unfortunately the other chats are clones though, which really irks me! But it is nice to have the feeling that one is part of a bigger collection of chats, and realize that we were all pushed out of the same MSN boat. It would be nice to see all the clones either make their own ocx, or partnership with someone who has one that they can use legally and ethically, and then have all the genuine chats partnership together, so that the people have a LARGER and more easily accessible NETWORK of CHATS to access. What do you all think about the multi-chat situation? Does developing a larger network of chats sound like something that would make it easier on the chatters to find people they can chat with, and thus prevent them from heading out to places such as paltalk or other very large sites? Right now quite a few chatters bounce between a few of the chat sites, but I was shocked to realize just how many chatters aren't even aware of the other sites, or the possibility of finding new friends they really enjoy chatting with.

Thanks yahoo I didn't think it was..but I've just been too busy lately and thought maybe I missed something. :S I guess not--just another silly and false rumor. lol. So msn ocx is still for use with permission only? **Edit** Rancidly grinning males... I had a genuine question about this, because I thought I missed something while I had my nose in my books here. Thanks to yahoo for giving a genuine reply.

Someone told me today that the MSN Chat software is open source and anybody can use it :/ Now unless something has changed this week while I've been studying, I would say that is just another silly rumor going around. Does anyone know anything about the claim that Msn Chat software has been made open source and available for everyone to use?

Msn states that it is only illegal to use the ocx without permission. Probably there are people who DO have permission to use it--and that is why it is there. But the clones didn't bother to get permission, they just went and used it, illegally. The clones are like a group of renegades who go around trying all the house doors, and if one door is unlocked they take it as an invitation to go in and use everything in the house, not realizing the house door was left unlocked for invited guests only, not EVERYONE. Sigh. Let's not get me going on that all again though.

I like the banner...but I still don't like the UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL things that the clones have done by using someone elses copyrighted chat software to provide their webchat. It is simply disgraceful, and what is more disgraceful is the attempts "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" has made to white wash what they have done, and try to convince people it is perfectly fine. But I like the banner.

I think yahoo brought up a valid and sincere question/concern.

I also don't fully understand why the ocx servers have been re opened, except that perhaps msn re opened them to allow authorized third party users to access them. Msn has stated that the ocx is only illegal to use, if you do not gain permissio first..so that ocx might be provided there for people who do have permission. Just because we have access to a house, does not mean we can go in and use their tv and groceries. In the same way, just because we have access to the msn.ocx does not mean it is ours to use.. Official word from msn continues to be that the clones are operating without permission and illegally in their use of the msn.ocx. I realize that sometimes these types of investigations take along time..look how long it took to begin to resolve the issues around napster etc.. **Edit** Someone just mentioned also that perhaps msn re-opened that server for space for msn spaces or something.. it might not have intentionally removed or replaced the ocx at all...maybe they just shut down the server that the ocx is on , and re-opened it for some other reasons, not at all related to the ocx..

lol ( I hate to admit it, but I almost agree!) lol!! better watch it x, or you'll be promoted all the way up to the ozzmatized couch with me soon ...I'm still waiting for ozzy to come flying out that door next. I've already made a spot on the couch for him

Yahoo, is it legal to buy a stolen vehicle? Is it legal to enable people and encourage people to do illegal things? Of course not. Clearly msn has expressed that it is ILLEGAL to use the msn.ocx without permission. So at the very least buzen is an accomplis in the crime, and even responsible for enticing people to illegally use the msn.ocx already on their computers..and if it isn't already there, buzen will prompt users to download it before they can use webchat.. How many chatters would be illegally using the msn.ocx right now, if the clones didn't PROVIDE a place for them to do that. In essence the clones have ENABLED people to act illegally. The law does NOT count accomplises as innocent, nor does it count the clones innocent in enabling and encouraging chatters to illegally use the msn.ocx. Yahoo---no matter how you try to twist your way out of it, what the clones have done is NOT legal.

I didn't say it--I accurately quoted someone else who said it

Okay, Jay I fail to see how "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" lets users openly discuss the ocx issue on the "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" forums. Here I see questions and comments about the legality of using the msn.ocx buried in a topic named: Moved Topics Topics that are moved due to inappropriate content, which are not for full deletion! I also fail to see where I called names in my discussions, instead I see Yahoo(forum moderator) telling me that I'm full of crap. What I see in this discussion is an attempt to openly discuss concerns with the use of the msn.ocx. <a href="http://www."THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME".com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8234" target="_blank">Topic Link</a> Here is another example of a sincere "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" user(with a paid room even I think) expressing their opinion and concerns over the msn.ocx issue, and being re-assured of buzzens being perfectly legal..: Here is another example of buzz en admin claiming their innocence...and also throwing names around again.. Well from what I can glean, this is buzzens official stance: So there you have it

Buzz en Admin_Jay: 1. Did buzz en obtain permission from msn to use the ocx? 2. Is it legal for clones to use the msn.ocx for their webchat? 3. Is buzz en legally using the msn.ocx for webchat?

Jay, more than once I've heard you commend me for the strenght of my moral stand on this issue, even though you say you don't agree with it. That is one of the things that continues to give me hope that you will also find the strenght to do what is right in all of this. People WILL respect you a great deal, if you find the courage to be a REAL LEADER and stand up and openly admit that what the msn clone webchats have done is unethical, illegal, and a mistake that you now regret. Good luck in the future Jay, and I'll continue to hope that we will get to see you be the GOOD LEADER, you are meant to be. A leader that people can look up to and respect for his high morals, ethics, and honestly. These are the foundations that the businesses of the future are building on--because that is what people of our world respect.

All you know how to do is attack people that dont share your opinions. So unless everyones agrees with you, its not possible for you to stop. I was going to bring that up also. Or labelling everything they say as 'bullshit' Jay, quite honestly alot of people have called me all types of names for expressing my opinion on this. Alot of people have applied pressure and even threats to get me and others to be quiet. People have even tried to bully techgear and other scripting forums into silencing our freedom to express that we don't like people unethically and illegally building a webchat business on someone elses copyrighted chat software. What I have seen from you Jay is misleading and contradictory statements, brash name calling such as morons and bullshit, and then you accuse me of name calling? No. Your accusations fall back onto you, Jay. In ending, I continue to hope that you will do what is ethically right Jay...that is openly and honestly admit to your buzz en users that your decision to clone msn, and unethically and illegally use msn chat software as the basis for your own webchat was a wrong choice. You have the potential to influence alot of people in a postive way Jay--by openly and honestly owning up to your past mistake. I continue to hope that you will do this, because our world desperatly needs moral and ethically minded leaders for our youth to look up to and follow. And Jay above all else, you seem to be a person who wants to be a leader--so be a good one. Upfront, honest, and ethical, openly admitting to, and turning away from past mistakes. I am willing to bet that you will feel good about yourself in doing this, and others(who are on the verge of leaving because they feel lied to and tricked) might find a renewed sense of respect for you.

Jay, maybe you could un-ban me from the "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" forum so that I can read what is being said there about this ocx issue. I'm also interested in re-reading my posts on the ocx issue that were you considered inflamitory enough to warrant banning me. but yes, so long as you buy into buzzens 'everything is great, and we are not doing anything illegal' campaing, I'm sure you can bring up the ocx issue on the "THE CHAT THAT WE DARE NOT SPEAK IT'S NAME" forum without risking getting banned. :S