Deanne

I am happy to see Buzzen de-cloning. The new beta flash chat looks good. It has some nice options. Good work.

Not saying anything

8-) yup keep justifying it. In my opinion, if someone isn't able to make their own ocx, they probably aren't able to run a good quality chat service either. At least this clone is de-cloning--unless they're like buzzen and just keep promising.

I love what you've done Travis btw it will be nice to have you back warrior--looking forward to it.

lol I don't work. I'm a student. *Doesn't actually have time, but makes time because clones bug me so much. Maybe it's all that buzzen buzzing. (swat) (swat)

Well I've spent some time contacting MSN and Microsoft again, about the clones, and they call them hoaxes and fake sites, and advise people not to provide personal information to them. They are still investigating reports of websites that impersonate MSN. *Btw, Yahoo..if you read this Microsoft replied, and said the correct route to take for informatin and assistance is to contact MSN, at the Help Link I had posted on the buzzen forum. http://support.msn.com/default.aspx I'm writing them again to see if I can gain more information on if the sites are still considered illegal, or not, and what MSN plans to do about making the public aware of the clone situation.

I don't think we've ever agreed--now it is twice in two days! lol yea iLia, you gotta post fast on some discussions...before ozzy wakes up and gets them closed: Well everyone knows how I feel about clones. I firmly believe that anyone who is unethical enough to clone in the first place, probably isn't ethical enough to run an ethical chat site--that is my opinion. I also think that if people are unethical enough to support clones in the first place, they shouldn't get too angry or surprised when the clones treat them unethically in return. I mean--how can we really expect an unethical site to treat people ethically? unethical = unethical = unethical.

lol is it really that easy to clone on a clone?? Can't be! I guess it's just another reason why I love Vsixc! If anyone types /nick and tries to clone a registered nick at Vsixc, the server auto-disconnects them as soon as they fail to provide the account password--they aren't even able to speak or be hosted etc. And another nice perk is the Vsixc admin can't even see account passwords at Vsixc, because they are encoded--so you NEVER have to worry about staff stealing your accounts. Anyways--sounds like a sad situation grinning_male, and just one more reason to avoide the clones. I know alot of people use the same password at all sites, so hopefully no one is using their MSN or other important passwords at the clones. In my opinion buzzen isn't much better when they get into personal profiles and edit them however they please, just cause they want to--They're still accessing personal accounts, and that bugs me!

lol I can't resist.. "So what are you giving them free advertising for??"

Grinning male, the forum doesn't use the ocx, and when a friend sends me a link to a topic where Jay is trying to persuade people that it is LEGAL to evade income taxes--why wouldn't I express my opinion on it? Especially considering that I've already witnessed how well he has persuaded people that using copyrighted software without permission is LEGAL and OK. Do I really want to sit silently by and watch him persuade people to evade income tax now too? Nope. Is it better to just ignore such blatant attempts to lead people down the path of utter lawlessness?? or is it better to voice my opinion on the matter? Also, while I also strongly uphold peoples freedom to express themselves and to do what they want in their own space. I also believe it is important that people respect the foundations of our society to speak freely. Jay exercising his ability(not right) to ban who ever he wants, is basically stepping on the rights of peoples right to freely express their opinions. I have respected his ability to delete my posts and ban me, and I am not trying to hack my way back onto his forum. Instead I have done what I told him I would do: move the discussion to a forum that does uphold the basic positive standards of our society for freedom of speach. Anyways contrary to a popular rumor, not ALL publicity is good publicity.

What is FHN?

Grinning male, Jay can delete posts and ban who ever he wants--but it doesn't mean it is right. Banning because you don't like what someone says isn't right, and deleting posts that rub you the wrong way isn't right either. They are the tactics of people who mis-use power. Those approachs are not the foundation of our society--they are the approachs that eat away at the foundation of our society! Instead of living by the laws of our society, Jay is slowly encouraging people to toss the decent laws of our society aside (don't pay taxes, don't respect copyrights etc) and replace those laws with his own ideas, which amount to a mini dictatorship and oppression. "Don't post something I don't like or that makes me look bad, or else I will delete your posts and ban you!" I MEAN OMGOSH??! What kind of TYRANNY is he trying to create? Jay did not want to be accountable for what he is presuading people to believe, and He did not want to talk about what type of effect his views and actions have on society. This is apparent by the fact that he deleted my comments and banned me. If Jay does want to be accountable, let him address this issue openly, and explain to us what type of society he hopes to create by persuading people to ignore copyrights and evade income tax! That is the issue. Instead of being a responsible member of our society and upholding the laws that make our world a decent place to live, Jay is encouraging people to evade paying income tax, and to ignore copyright laws--and on top of all of that, he does not even provide an atmosphere that enables people to freely voice their opinions, or concerns about his views, nor does he want to be held accountable to fully explain the effect he hopes to have on society by persuading people it is LEGAL to ignore copyrights and evade income tax. Instead he deletes posts and bans the person. :/ btw, I don't understand your comments about coming into a forum illegally? What are you talking about with that?

Joan he was doing MORE than starting a poll or asking questions. Jay was accusing America of illegally robbing the people of their hard earned money, and failing to do anything beneficial with the tax money. Jay was actively encouraging people to view paying income tax as an ILLEGAL and USELESS activity. In the past Jay has actively tried to convince people that it is LEGAL to ignore copyrights. These two things combined show a PATTERN of behavior that NEGATIVELY affects our society! Further, the PATTERN of lawlessness is increasing from trying to convince people that it is LEGAL to ignore copyrights, to trying to convince people that it is LEGAL to evade income taxes! If this pattern of lawlessness continues, what is next?? When someone is actively trying to change the views and opinions of others in such a negative way, as to PERSUADE them that it is LEGAL to evade paying income taxes and ignore copyrights, I think we are RESPONSIBLE to call them on their actions, and requst that they give an account of their motives and reasons, and to explain what type of society they hope to create by persuading people to disregard taxes and copyrights. And, no matter how you look at it--downloading movies, music without paying, or using someone elses copyrighted material without permission ROBS people of the income and rights they HOLD on that material. Ultimately the more people who accept these actions as "OK", the further downhill our society slides. How many of us would enjoy giving away your work for free, or having people ignore our copyrights on materials? And what type of society are we hopeing to create, when we encourage people to think that it is LEGAL and thus OK to ignore copyrights, download movies and music without paying for it, and evade paying income taxes??? Basically alot of people don't looking at the effect their actions or decisions have on others, or on our society as a whole---most people who advocate that it is LEGAL to evade taxes, or that it is LEGAL to ignore copyrights, or that it is LEGAL to download music and videos without paying for them are NOT looking past their own nose--they are being selfish, and putting the benefit for themselves, above the rights of other people, and the welfare of our society as a whole.

No I don't actually want to talk about the LEGALITIES involved in either the tax evasion or copyright issues. I want to talk about what EFFECT tax evasion and ignoring copyrights might have on society. If we all jump on side with Jay and stop paying income tax, and ingore everyones copyright--will our world be a better place to live, or worse? That is what I want to talk about. To me this goes deeper than a tax debate or copyright debate. Yes I have a huge issue with clones using copyrighted software without permission. Everyone knows that. I also have a huge issue with people who evade income taxes. If I ONLY wanted to discuss the ocx issue with Jay AGAIN, I would open a topic on that. But to me the issue goes much deeper than all of that--it boils down to what type of society are people who ignore copyright laws and evade income tax trying to create? We have laws in our society to protect our us and ensure we have freedom to enjoy life to the fullest. Encouraging people to blatantly disregard those laws has a negative effect on our society. Do people think the world would be a better place if no one paid taxes, and if we all utterly ignored the copyrights of others? Mayb we should jump on Jays bandwagon and disregard roadway laws, and drive on whatever side of the street we want, and ignore stop lights and red lights also? What is Jays REASON and what is his MOTIVE when he tries to convince people it is LEGAL to use that ocx without permission? What is Jays REASON and MOTIVE for trying to convince people it is LEGAL to evade income taxes? What type of society does he hope to create by convincing people to ignore copyrights and evade income taxes? My question to Jay goes deeper than the tax issue or the copyright issue. I want to know what type of society he hopes to create, by persuading people it is LEGAL to use someone elses copyrighted software without permission, and by persuading people it is LEGAL to evade paying income taxes. Jay wanted to debate the LEGALITY of these things, and in both cases insisted that people SHOW him LAWS that refute his faulty logic, and when they did, he brought up information on WHY those laws aren't valid. It's all faulty logic, and I don't want to leave this topic at that--it's not just a matter of proving its LEGAL or NOT LEGAL--its about what kind of effect our actions and choices have on society. So that is why I asked what type of society he hopes to create by encouraging people to ignore copyrights, and evade income taxes. **Edit** Grinning male, I have every right to air my concerns about the fact that a site admin is actually trying to persuade people it is legal to evade paying income taxes. I also have every right to air my concerns about the fact that the same site admin has actively been tryign to persuade people that it is legal to ignore copyrights. I also have every right to ask that site admin, by name, to explain the what his reasons and motives are for encouraging people to ignore copyrights and evade taxes. If people do not want to be held accountable to their words and actions, then it's better for them to keep silent. Jay has not been silent. Further he is in a leadership role, being admin at a chat site--therefore he should expect people to hold him responsible and accountable for what he encourages people to believe, and reqest that he give a full account of why he is encourages it.

ha :/ puppies isn't even related to this. But ignoring income tax laws and ignoring copyright laws are closely related concepts. Trying to persuade people it is LEGAL to with-hold their income taxe, and trying to persuade people it is LEGAL to use someone elses copyrighted material without permission, are similar--and both stemming from faulty reasoning.

thats fair X *Gwen waits for Jay to reply to her question. Again, I don't think it is too much to ask from Jay, to explain what his motives are, and what type of society he hopes to create by his actions and encouragement of people to rebel against the laws that make our society a decent place to live.

Nice site err0r. With all due respect, the issue is that it is a pattern of behaviour that concerns me. If you look at each event alone, they don't mean much, but as you begin to notice the similar pattern of lawlessness it makes more sense. Jay seems to seek to rebel against the laws of society, and encourage others to do so also. I believe it is only fair to require him to provide us with information as to what type of society he is hoping to create, and for what motive. It is not just a single matter of encouraging people to consider evading paying their taxes...it is also a matter of using copyrighted material without permission and trying to convince people it is LEGAL. These two items combined show that it is not an issue of poor judgement, but rather it is a personality pattern, which has an overall negative effect on society. The point is, anyone who thinks its LEGAL NOT to pay taxes, is of course going to think its LEGAL TO USE SOMEONE's copyrighted material without permission. They are both related and they both come from the same source: faulty reasoning. **Edit** btw Josh I don't think I attacked Jay. I attacked his logic, and questioned what type of society he hopes to create by convincing people that it is right and legal to ignore copyrights and tax laws.

This was an interesting debate, with far reaching and potentially very negative effects for society as a whole. I don't think it is too much to ask Jay to explain what his motives are, and what type of society he hopes to create by his actions and encouragement of people to rebel against the laws that make our society a decent place to live. This topic was originally started on the Buzzen forum by Buzzen Admin_Jay, under the category of Debate. I took time to post my comments to the debate there, but my comments were removed, not once, but three times without any reason provided for why, and I was banned(again). The third time I posted comments there, I stated that if Jay refused to discuss the issue on the buzzen forum, and continued to remove my comments, that we could carry on discussions on another forum. I had my post removed the third time, with no reason provided as to why, and I was banned. Thus I have moved the discussion here, in hopes that Jay will answer my questions here. btw, the buzzen debate is located at this link, for those who want to read through all of the comments: Original Debate Link Below are quotes of Jays first and last posting and some in between, and also my three posts, which were removed. These are my three comments: This was my 2nd post: That was removed also so I reposted a third time, and was banned: Again, this was an interesting debate, with far reaching and potentially very negative effects for society as a whole. I don't think it is too much to ask Jay to explain what his motives are, and what type of society he hopes to create by his actions and encouragement of people to rebel against the laws that make our society a decent place to live.

What do you mean the updater is not for VSIXc Travis? Anyways, yes I started on my own using the code X-fusion posted, but I didn't have time to get very far on it, before Travis had his updater code all written. So I'm using the updater code Travis made, to update the CE script for VSIXc, though I haven't even had time to get it all put together yet. It works nicely like the old GD one did though. Looking forward to the SoulFly release

lol

From what I've seen buzz is going to be a ghost town pretty soon. Alot of the rooms seemed to have moved out, since I was last there in mid-december. Can't blame them for moving out when there are so many other clones out there, which offer better service for free. How long can you keep people holding on with promises that never materialize? How long can you keep convincing people to 'donate' when simple features such as find a friend, and updating your profile don't work. How long will it take people to get annoyed with the overwhelming number of google ads scattered over every single page? Personally after hearing that buzzen might not release their own ocx afterall, I expect we will see buzzen simply close down at some point in the near future. As donation based rooms begin moving out, and buzzen potential for profits dwindle, they will have no motivation left to keep providing the service. As for all the people on buzzen, phreik, sparkpea etc WANTING to use the msn.ocx. A very very large majority of chatters and room owners that I've talked to don't even know their is an alternative to the msn.ocx--worse yet a large majority of them don't even know what a clone IS, or that they ARE using the msn.ocx. lol Most people who visit VSIXc are impressed with the clean fresh look of the webchat, and friendly people. And those people who set up a room on VSIXc or who stick around as regular chatters are impressed with the server stability, and helpful staff. It says alot when you've got your regular chatters out telling ALL their friends just how great VSIXc is, and inviting them all to join it also. That type of energy is difficult to stop. What I've found is that when people to hear that their is a better alternative to buzzen or the clone they are on--they start preparing their chatters, or bugging their room owners to move. I need more than two hands to count the number of rooms that are seriously fed up with buzzen and have either previously tried the other clones, or are just tired of the clonish look. These rooms are very close to de-cloning, as I expect that and a few start, alot more will follow. Sites running their own ocx are the up and coming sites See! you first gotta be big, and lose all your users in order to be a ghost town. The sites running their ocx haven't hit their high point yet, they are still steadily working up towards it, and will probably enjoy a high user base for a long time after the clones have lost their freshness. Because sites with thier own ocx can keep updating, which VSIXc is in the process of doing again:) whereas the clones are stuck with the already outdated msn.ocx

Well as more people are finding out about VSIXc and trying it, I hear alot of really positive comments about the vsixc.ocx. People like the clean fresh look of it, and with the 20 new emoticons and 150 avatars coming it will be even better. New rooms keep moving in because they like the ocx, and appreciate the stable and secure server and friendly atmosphere.

So how about just asking them. There's usually a buzzen staff or admin around here somewhere.. yahoo.......admin_jay........sysop_banyu.........remko....... Does buzzen host or provide the msn ocx for download? --If no, where does the site prompt people to download it from? Also while I'm asking, I read on the buzzen forum that buzzen might not release their own ocx afterall? Is that true? What would be the reasons for not releasing it?

hey grinning_male, I thought you were going to come hang out with us at vsixc

lol x *previously known as Gwen and Deanne.